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Post by Gwenneth on Sept 23, 2004 23:37:04 GMT -5
For those of you on the MC List, I know there was a discussion going on about how Fanfiction.net deleted Cassia and Sio's story Siege of Dread from the archive, WIPING out ALL of their reviews. How DARE they right? Well, their reasoning for it was apparently the story broke the "non-story" guideline...they do not allow you to post author notes or reviewer responses as seperate chapters. Cassia and Sio did nothing of the sort, nothing wrong. I FOR ONE WANT TO RANT ABOUT THIS. Now, if anyone on here is a ff.net manager/worker/whatever, perhaps they can explain why that happened. It is not the first time it has happened to good authors without reason I've been told. I just got off the ff.net site, I was saving my reviews so I wouldn't lose them if a story suddenly disappeared. I know if I were a reader in the middle of a story that was axed, I'd go ballistic! SO...anyone else here want to rant about this? PLEASE do...ff.net is probably the largest fanfic archive out there and to have the possibility of your story being jerked out of the archive with NO notice is very daunting. Some of us do not meet guidelines of the more privately run, stricter sites unfortunately so we would depend on ff.net. Anyone care to banter about this...please do!
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Post by Joee on Sept 24, 2004 1:40:57 GMT -5
Unfortunetly a lot of the time it is just immature people with a grudge against the author that report abuse. It's also a shame that the moderators don't actually check the story to see if is against the rules, they simply delete it. Even if they do not have the time to check each story, I'm sure people would volunteer to do it for them. It is true that many people are not allowed to post on some of the privately owned sites, but there are many small sites out there that take all kinds of stories. The only problem is, you're probably not going to have as many people reading it. I know I'm concerned that one of my stories will be reported, but honestly, what can we do besides reposting once our suspension time had expired? Even if an author were to boycott FF.Net, it wouldn't make a difference to anyone except that writer and their fans, and the administrators wouldn't care at all. So, alas, I have no real solution for this problem. It is really a shame that it can hapen for no good reason to terrific authors.
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Ruse
Light-hearted Elfling
Are you sure it isn't time for a colorful metaphor?
Posts: 19
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Post by Ruse on Sept 24, 2004 13:43:43 GMT -5
A friend of mine mentioned this and I was curious about why it had happened. I haven't had the pleasure of reading Cassia and Sio's work, but I can add to the rants about ff.net's growing paranoia about doing anything that might infringe on their very particular rules. Now, I was under the impression they did check people's stories to verify. Even if they just glanced through the chapters to make sure there is actual content and not an author's note. That they just take reporters at their words is outragous...anyone could get anyone banned for the simplest reason! My sympathies to Cassia and Sio. *whacks ff.net with a large stick*
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Post by JastaElf on Sept 24, 2004 14:13:29 GMT -5
Now, I was under the impression they did check people's stories to verify. Even if they just glanced through the chapters to make sure there is actual content and not an author's note. That they just take reporters at their words is outragous...anyone could get anyone banned for the simplest reason! Alas, one can be and frequently people DO get banned from ff.net for very little reason at almost no provocation. I am convinced, after it happened to me, that anyone can be banned simply by some idiot sending a note to FF.net's abuse address. And there is NO appeal from this; I got about half an hour's notice that "Dark Leaf" was about to be yanked, and was in the middle of saving the over 300 reviews when the story and all reviews simply disappeared. I was absolutely heartbroken. I wrote and begged Xing for an explanation, begged him to tell me who had accused me of what--but never heard one single WORD out of them. :-( Apparently I was guilty without a chance to prove innocence. And they were too cowardly to interface with me as an injured party. Since then, I've heard from people who strongly felt they were targetted: by people jealous of their review counts, by people who just don't like them, whatever. And I've also heard there are LJ entries online where people actually BRAG that they sent a note to the abuse line just for the purpose of having someone's story and reviews deleted--because everyone KNOWS the accusations are not checked out. :-( I haven't seen any of these LJ entries, but that's the gossip. Not that it would surprise me. :-( I am very sorry to hear that Cassia and Sio, who write fun, accessible, all-ages fanfic, have been treated this way--but I'm not surprised. Saddened, yes. Surprised, no. *sigh*
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Post by dawtheminstrel on Sept 24, 2004 15:07:20 GMT -5
I once saw a review of a story at ff.net in which the reviewer bragged that they had reported the story. They gloated, asking the author how she was going to feel when her story was eliminated, which it was.
That author is 13, I believe, and this was pure vendetta. I don't think Xing checks at all.
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Post by Karri on Sept 24, 2004 15:34:33 GMT -5
Yup, unfortunately I have seen that sort of thing, too, on far too many occassions. Alas, complaints about FF's handling of authors seems to happen with all to common frequency these days. I agree is quite aggravating and worrisome, especially for those of us who post in more than one fandom, which makes FF the optimal place for posting. As much as I love cursing them (which I admit to doing frequently and with great vehemence) and generally rue defending them, the site simply exploded on Xing and his compatriots (the rules were much more lax when I first signed up 4 years ago.) They attempted to compensate a little by separating original fiction and fanfiction into two different sites, but still, the book category of FF alone has over 200,000 stories posted (and it’s only 1 of 8 categories.) Thus they have vastly narrowed allowable content and spend their time fixing bugs and acting on abuse complaints, which they haven’t time to investigate. The result is abuse of the abuse reporting system. (Many of my favorite stories have been yanked, some of which admittedly did not fit the story rule, but were amazing pieces of creative writing, nonetheless.) Unfortunately, there does not seem to be any sort of viable recourse for the situation (especially as it is virtually impossible to open a line of communication with Xing – though I have heard tales of this happening, but I chalk ‘em to urban legends. ) Thus, every author needs to make an effort to regularly back up stories and story reviews (which can be done by hitting the Backup link and then doing as Save As of the appropriate reviews onto your hard drive, or a copy and paste into Word.) Also, there are a couple new multi-fandom archives that have started up in response to difficulties with FF. One is www.soupfiction.net/, which is down at the moment due to excessive bandwidth problems with their server (they are looking for a new one -- FF had these sorts of problems when they first started up, as well.) Another one is www.fandomination.net/, which is seeking donations to keep running, but is still up (as I type anyway.) This one is formerly an adult site, but has opened up to general fiction in response to displeasure with FF. Both of these are good archives that allow self-upload and reviews. They are also both fairly small at the moment, but more authors will attract more readers/reviewers. As for Tolkien-specific archive suggestions, that is a little more difficult as most have specific content requirements. (Stories of Arda is hardly unusual on that account – most Tolkien archives have been set up to cater to a specific readership, so the best thing to do is to search out the one that best fits your needs, ie. Mellon Chronicles is probably the best place to submit Aragorn-Legolas friendship stories.) Well, I expect I have gone on over-long as it is, so I shall hush up now. (No doubt I will be much more solidly on the FF warpath when I escape the cold-medicine-induced stupor that has taken hold of my currently hazy brain.)
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Post by LKK on Sept 24, 2004 16:08:35 GMT -5
*sigh* I don't have any thoughts that haven't already been mentioned. I just feel terrible for Cassia & Sio and all the other writers this has happened to. So this is just gonna be a rambling thoughts kinda post. I have mixed feelings about the ff.net. On the one hand, I recognize that ff.net is run by volunteers. Yes, they do accept money from its members, but the money is used to help defray the costs. I doubt senior staff members are living off of profits from ff.net. Having worked with a science fiction convention committee for many years, I realize how much effort goes into running such a big undertaking using only volunteer staff. It's HARD! The people running ff.net probably have a perpetual feeling that they're drowning from the effort to maintain that huge site. They probably feel that they don't have time to look into every complaint in addition to everything else they do for the site. (I bet they get lots of complaints daily.) But if they would just be willing to ask for help .... I'm sure they could easily find a group of people who would like to play detective. Look into the complain, see if it's valid, perhaps monitor who and how often a reader complains. Is there a serial complaintant on the loose, terrorizing an innocent writer or holding a genre / fandom hostage?? I don't think it would be too difficult to establish a review committee. And to let the ff.net authors and readers KNOW that a complaint review committee exists. That's what angers me most. That the senior staff ff.net seem to be unwilling to address the underlying perception that a story will be pulled with no investigation and little warning to the author. Okay, I'm done. I'm stepping off the soapbox now.
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Post by Karri on Sept 24, 2004 16:29:04 GMT -5
I agree. At the very least, FF needs to increase the time between warning and action, so that an author has a realistic amount of time to salvage what they can...but suggesting that to the powers-that-be would require actually be able to communicate with Xing, which has already been noted as an impossible task.
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Post by Neuriel on Sept 24, 2004 17:16:22 GMT -5
Do they have the right to delete a story without letting the author fix it/ That just doesn't seem right I hope that all of this gets cleared up soon before something bad happens. Not like it hasn't already right Neuriel
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Post by LKK on Sept 24, 2004 18:44:21 GMT -5
Do they have the right to delete a story without letting the author fix it/ That just doesn't seem right As a private site funded by the owners and whatever monies members contribute, The Powers That Be behind ff.net do have the right to delete a story without letting the author fix it. And it's a right they seem to like to exercise. It would be far more considerate of TPTB to let the authors fix their stories or take them down themselves. To do that correctly, TPTB would have to follow up on authors who are under a complaint to make sure the authors did what they should have. This would require more time and more effort by TPTB. Neither of which TPTB seems inclined to give right now.
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Post by Carol on Sept 25, 2004 1:04:09 GMT -5
My suggestion would be to just get arid of the report abuse button. I view the stories like I do the tv set. If I don't like what I see I can always turn it off with the click of a mouse button. Why even have the option if your not going to take the time to check out the so called abuse in the first place.
I also applaude those of you who post on more then one site. That way when things like this happen I know I have a second option to go to so I don't miss out on story. I actually prefer reading on the smaller sites then I do ffn anyways.
Since I don't write I will never know what it feels like to be abused (and I say abused because those of you who have had this happen to you are the ones who are abused not ffn.) by this annoying option but my heart goes out to you all. I do know how it feels to go back to finish a story I have fallen in love with and have it gone. The worse part is when it's a story not posted elsewhere and I never get to see how it ends.
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Post by Nilmandra on Sept 25, 2004 10:20:57 GMT -5
My suggestion would be to just get arid of the report abuse button.
I don't think they can do that, actually. I like the idea of establishing abuse teams that investigate the reports, though I'm sure Xing would say it might be hard to find people he trusts for that too.
But, a site's Internet rating is dependent on content, and I think that advertisers would also look at that. If there is no way to report abuse, then content that might get them in trouble stays on the site and can cause them other problems.
The situations with Cassia and Sio, and Jasta are really unfortunate, but I have seen some things pulled that were really bad and needed to go, too.
I don't envy Xing, but he needs to deal with abuse of the 'report abuse' function.
Nilmandra
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Post by Carol on Sept 25, 2004 22:41:56 GMT -5
My apologies I didn't think about that. Since I've never used the function I'm not really all that familiar with it. I just figure reading a story is my privledge and I don't feel I would want to judge anyone for anything. When you report does it list different types of abuse or do they consider everything the same??? If that is the case maybe that is where the problem lies.
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Post by LKK on Sept 26, 2004 13:28:26 GMT -5
When you report does it list different types of abuse or do they consider everything the same??? If that is the case maybe that is where the problem lies. I haven't used the report abuse function. But didn't Cassia say that her story was pulled because it was a "non story"? To me, that implies the person who reported the story had some choice over what the abuse category was. If TPTB had made that decision, they would have had to investigate the charge. One look would reveal that it wasn't a non story. I can imagine other possible abuse categories like wrong rating (actually NC-17 instead of R), real person stories (ff.net no longer allows), etc.
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Post by Karri on Sept 26, 2004 14:31:04 GMT -5
Though 'non-story' seems to be the catch all, I have known several stories that were pulled for 'content exceeds rating', so there are apparently different categories of abuse. Hmmm...I all makes me terribly curious...I must just have to make up something to post so I can report myself and see what it is all about.
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