Wood elf culture

[Nilmandra]

I thought it might be fun to think about how wood elves spend their days and what their culture might be like. Its always a challenge to write about life there, since we don't know alot about it. I also find it challenging to keep my elves 'elfy' and not much like humans.

But, there is some good information in the Hobbit - and perhaps from the other books we can glean some good things that tell us more about wood elf culture. These are some things that could be discussed:

What did they eat? How did they provide the food?

What was commerce like? Did they trade or use money or both?

What was society like? Familial, clannish, communal?

What was their relationsihp to the forest? How much did nature 'aid' them in daily life?

How were their children raised? What were the roles of females and males?

How close did war get to the realm - why did they live in a cave?

What kind of enemies did they have and how much of a threat were they? Orcses, spiders, dragons?

The Wood elves of Thranduil's realm may have had the most contact with other races, like humans and dwarves. What are some implications of that? Is that why Legolas could get along so well with others?

So, I'm off to find some things in the Hobbit.

And where does Karri find those cool smileys - like the waving smiley and the arrow shooting dude? And why can't I use them?!

[LKK]

Good questions, Nilmandra! I'll embarass myself by discussing based on memory. Feel free to point out how stupid my ideas are when compared to the answers in canon.

What did they eat? How did they provide the food?
I'm certain they hunted. Not so certain that they farmed though. Would they gather their veggies based on what's available or have established gardens & farms? Somehow, I can't picture wood elf farmers, but can a large community of hunter-gathers subsist?? The anthropological evidence says no. Still, the idea of farming elves makes me giggle.

My question is ... do hunting parties or farmers provide for the entire community? Or do they feed their own families primarily?

What was commerce like? Did they trade or use money or both?
I go with the trade theory. The individual elves who had commerce with the men of the nearby towns might have had some money for those exchanges. I don't know how they would have acquired the money initially though. But within the realm itself, I think trade of goods was the method rather than use of money.

What was society like? Familial, clannish, communal?
How the society is organized greatly influences the food question. A communal society will have more specialized roles. A familial society will be more like the historical hunter-gatherer societies. Clannish is somewhere in between like the early Scots or the Vikings.

I believe that Mirkwood was the largest of the elven realms, right? The larger the society, the more likely it would be communal. Economies of scale and efficiency become major factors the larger the population. So Mirkwood was probably communal. I guess there are elven farmers after all. (I'm still giggling.)

What was their relationsihp to the forest? How much did nature 'aid' them in daily life?
I need to think some more about this one.

How were their children raised? What were the roles of females and males?
ditto

How close did war get to the realm - why did they live in a cave?
Did all the wood elves like in the cave? That would severely limit their population if they did. I picture most of the wood elf population scattered among the forest, retreating to the cave only in times of extreme necessity.

What kind of enemies did they have and how much of a threat were they? Orcses, spiders, dragons?
Spiders foremost, I think. Aren't spiders described as the only creature the elves had no feelings for? That lack of concern usually comes from constant exposure to the threat.

Dragons liked to sleep once they found a den. So while they could be devasting when roused, most of the time they were quiet. Like a sleeping volcano.

Orcses? Hm. Possibly almost as common as spiders. But I still see spiders as the enemy that bothered elves the most.

The Wood elves of Thranduil's realm may have had the most contact with other races, like humans and dwarves. What are some implications of that? Is that why Legolas could get along so well with others?
Another one for me to think more on.

And where does Karri find those cool smileys - like the waving smiley and the arrow shooting dude? And why can't I use them?!
I don't know, but I'm terribly jealous of her!

[Karri]

Woo hoo! My most favorite topic to speculate upon!

I also find it challenging to keep my elves 'elfy' and not much like humans.

I am very fond of ‘elfy’ elves.

What did they eat? How did they provide the food?

I suspect that they ate a pretty standard fare – a diet heavy on protein (probably from hunting and fishing, with such things as cheese added to it through trade), supplemented by fruits and nuts, vegetables, and cereals (in various forms, such as bread and porridge.) I think they probably harvested what the forest had to offer (nuts, berries, perhaps other small amounts of other fruits, maybe some tubers), but depended primarily on imported goods.

My question is ... do hunting parties or farmers provide for the entire community? Or do they feed their own families primarily?

I imagine that the food was distributed equally throughout the Elven community. Those who dwelt away from the palace, of course, took what they hunted home to their family, but they likely had to go to the king’s palace to get such things as cereals and butter, for which they probably offered a portion of what they had hunted/gathered/grew/made (it may not even have been required of them in order to get a portion of the king’s storage, but was probably considered proper when possible.)

What was commerce like? Did they trade or use money or both

I think that money did not change hands a lot. Thranduil controlled the river and charged tolls for its use, but I suspect those tolls were paid in barrels of apples and butter, rather than coins, for the most part. I am certain some coin/treasure was added to the Elvenking’s coffers when people wanted to use the river, but did not have commodities to offer; and when the dwarves dwelt in the Lonely Mountain, I dare say Thranduil upped the tolls a bit and expected the dwarves (or those trading dwarven goods) to pay in silver, gold and gems.

What was society like? Familial, clannish, communal?

Definitely clannish – they took care of everyone within their clan community and distrusted outsiders.

What was their relationsihp to the forest? How much did nature 'aid' them in daily life?

Hmmm…I think I will have to join LKK in pondering this one a bit longer.

How were their children raised? What were the roles of females and males?

I think the children were raised and educated by nana and ada (and elder siblings), but with the support of the extended family/clan. Male/female roles seem pretty egalitarian in elvendom in general, so I think it is also the case in Mirkwood.

How close did war get to the realm - why did they live in a cave?

They did not all live in a cave.

“The subjects of the king mostly lived and hunted in the open woods, and had houses or huts on the ground or in the branches.” - The Hobbit, Chapter VIII – Flies and Spiders

I think the king’s palace functioned like any king’s palace – it was a sheltered place to store goods and treasure, a central place to distribute goods and treasure, and a fortress to flee to in time of need.

In cases assaults such as those from Dol Guldor during the War of the Ring, war probably came right up to the king’s great gate.

What kind of enemies did they have and how much of a threat were they? Orcses, spiders, dragons?

Spiders seemed to be more of a nuisance than a threat, as they would not venture into places touched by the magic of the elves, but they would kill the game the wood-elves hunted for survival.

Beorn was pretty confident in his assurances to the dwarves that they need only reach the forest before the orcs…which to me implies the orcs would not follow them into the northern forest. Also, the orcs entered the forest after the battle only as a last desperate measure, where they flee to their doom. (The spiders and orcs do not seem to be allies, so I suspect the Wood-elves let the spiders feast away.) So, I do not think orcs entered the wood, except in the south near Dol Guldor, unless it was to travel by the forest road. This indicates to me that the elves did not guard that road, for if they had, it would have been a prime place to ambush the orcs, who would eventually have stopped traveling that way. The border seems to have been the Mountains of Mirkwood.

Dragons, though few, would logically have been a threat, for the rumored wealth of the Elvenking was enough to impress the dwarves, so would have tempted a dragon, but either the king’s palace was sufficient defense, or the dragons were willing to settle for easier targets rather than go up against a formidable foe like the elves, because the dragons seem to have left the Wood-elves alone.

The Wood elves of Thranduil's realm may have had the most contact with other races, like humans and dwarves. What are some implications of that? Is that why Legolas could get along so well with others?

At the end of The Hobbit, Balin say that there is peace between elves and dwarves and men, so clearly Thranduil’s people were able to deal amiable (at least for the purposes of trade) with their neighbors of other races. The Wood-elves, though, did seem to consider themselves above the other races, which though the men seemed willing to respect, could not have sat well with the proud dwarves, so I suspect some underlying racial tension remained. Also, the elves seemed to deal with other races by going to them (ie. the elves rafted the barrels to Laketown and waited for the fresh goods to be taken back, verses a merchant from Laketown bringing the goods.) Accordingly, they probably dealt with the dwarves in Dale or Laketown, and did not invite the dwarves into the forest. (It is interesting to note that the dwarves send Gloín and Gimli to Imladris to ask for the aid of the elves, and not to Mirkwood.)

And where does Karri find those cool smileys - like the waving smiley and the arrow shooting dude? And why can't I use them?!

LOLOL!!

(To use them, add img and /img)

Waving Smilie:
users.pandora.be/eforum/emoticons4u/fingers/fing31.gif

Archer Smilie:
users.telenet.be/eforum/emoticons4u/violent/sterb043.gif

Drooling Smilie:
www.applepics.com/2/userfiles/40f1b531896b9.gif

Thud Smilie:
home.earthlink.net/~circe43/images/sm38.gif

“I Agree” Smilie:
www.applepics.com/3/userfiles/40f98b1f12d50.gif

Bowing Smilie:
www.applepics.com/3/userfiles/40f98adec02c0.gif

King Smilie:
users.pandora.be/eforum/emoticons4u/happy/137.gif

Ranting Smilie:
www.click-smilies.de/sammlung0304/sauer/angry-smiley-030.gif

Hugging Smilie:
yelims.free.fr/Amour/Amour35.gif

I will put up the urls for some smilie sites when I get home to the computer that has them stored.

[LKK]

Karri said:

Thud Smilie:
home.earthlink.net/~circe43/images/sm38.gif

I *adore* the Thud Smilie! The poor little guy. I wanna pick him up & give him a hug!

Edit: Hey! I just growed up with this post!

[Nilmandra]

Oh, good answers Karri and LKK! Karri, I knew you would love this topic.

Ok some of my favorite Hobbit quotes about the wood elves:

In the Wide World the Wood-elves lingered in the twilight of our Sun and Moon but loved best the stars; and they wandered in the great forests that grew tall in lands that are now lost. They dwelt most often by the edges of the woods, from which they could escape at times to hunt, or to ride and run over the open lands by moonlight or starlight; and after the coming of Men they took ever more and more to the gloaming and the dusk. Still elves they were and remain, and that is Good People.

I love that they are good people, and that they loved starlight and moonlight! I have visions of them dancing and singing at night as normal behavior, not just like at the feast.

This great cave, from which countless smaller ones opened out on every side, wound far underground and had many passages and wide halls; but it was lighter and more wholesome than any goblin-dwelling, and neither so deep nor so dangerous.

I cannot imagine being anywhere without windows for any length of time unless the need was dire. I have the King's family live on the outer side of the cave, so they had doors or balconies. Here I was greatly influenced by Jocelyn's 'Nudge out the door' (oh, we should add that to the recommended reading).

His people neither mined nor worked metals or jewels, nor did they bother much with trade or with tilling the earth.

But this always threw me! So they were hunters and gatherers, but I still wonder if families didn't do little vegetable plots in any available clearings. I guess sunlight would be an issue. And no metal working! So if they had need of weapons other than bows, where did they get them from? I used this idea in 'Valar' a little - that it was a big decision to get ore because they seldom had need.

And now I am in love. Pretty icons!

Hail the good King!

Nilmandra

[dawtheminstrel]

Hm. If they didn't trade and they didn't till the earth, that would certainly limit their diet, wouldn't it? As Karri says, they could forage and maybe have some domestic animals, goats or something for milk and wool.

What was Tolkien thinking!

[Karri]

"His people neither mined nor worked metals or jewels, nor did they bother much with trade or with tilling the earth."

This always threw me, too, until I thought about where it was coming from. If you add the next line, "All this was well known to every dwarf....", the perspective is a little clearer. This paragraph is basically a view of the Wood-elves and their king through the eyes of Thorin the dwarf, so that we, reader, understand why Thorin refuses to answer the king's questions:

"Consquently, Thorin was angry at their treatment of him, when they took their spell off him and he came to his senses; and also he was determined that no word of gold or jewel should be dragged out of him."

But in the next chapter, we discover, as we wander the palace with Bilbo, that the elves dotrade..."barrels, and barrels, and barrels."

I suspect that had it been of concern to Bilbo in his search, we would have discovered that the Wood-elves had many skills...weaving, working metals, working leather, working stone, etc.

Woo hoo! A Saturday spent delving deeply into The Hobbit....Karri is in heaven! ;D


Edit: Congrats on reaching the post of majority, LKK!
Welcome to conversation, daw.

[Karri]

Another thought on Wood-elf economics....

It could be that there is some truth in the statement that the elves did not trade, for trade implies an exchange, and it could be that the goods were only flowing in one direction.

After Smaug destroys Laketown, the men and their master are "ready to make any bargain for the future in return for the Elvenking's aid."

When the men send messengers to ask for the aid of the elves, there does not seem to be any real doubt that the elves will help, but that it will cost something. So, it could be that there is a precedent for this sort of arrangement between the men and the Wood-elves, and that the goods being sent down river to the Wood-elves' home are part of deals signed long before Bard's time. (Such arrangements might have been made beginning in the days men first decide to settle in the area, not just after a catastrophe such as the dragon.)

[Nilmandra]

This paragraph is basically a view of the Wood-elves and their king through the eyes of Thorin the dwarf

This is a great point, Karri. I have to remind myself of this all the time with LotR too. Both books are written from the perspective of a hobbit - Bilbo and things he learned from the dwarves and Frodo and what he learned from the members of the fellowship. That does lend a certain flavor to everything - and means that the picture of certain things - like the wood elves - is not probably entirely what it seems.

Someone once asked what the LotR might have read like if we saw it from Aragorn's perspective, or Legolas's.

In the case of The Hobbit - what is written about their trade and food practices might be just a snapshot in time.

Have you noticed that in writing too - how you have to remind yourself to keep in mind what the character whose perspective you are writing from knew at the time? I think that is what makes writing in the first person so tough!

[Karri]

Have you noticed that in writing too - how you have to remind yourself to keep in mind what the character whose perspective you are writing from knew at the time? I think that is what makes writing in the first person so tough!

Yup, it is a tricky thing -- reminding yourself that though you know some bit of information, the character would not and must act accordingly.

I agree that is what makes first person so tough (which is why I have only been brave enough to try it once -- with an autobiographical peice for a writing group challenge.) It makes writing historically difficult, too -- remembering that, in the Middle Ages, the character would not have known the importance of good hygiene and might have thought that a person suffering seizures was possessed by evil spirits. Fortunately, there is a little more leeway in fantasy (for elves can get away with being ahead of their time), but still it is difficult to detach oneself from modern-day knowledge and use only what the character would have known.

[LKK]

LKK said:

What was their relationsihp to the forest? How much did nature 'aid' them in daily life?
I need to think some more about this one.

How were their children raised? What were the roles of females and males?
ditto

Okay, I've thought some more on these 2 questions. In reverse order:

How were their children raised? What were the roles of females and males?
I agree with what Karri said on this. I've read some fanfics where elven children attend classes. But I don't think that's what Tolkien had in mind.

I think he envisioned children raised by the family or close friends. They would learn through story-telling (i.e. songs). There might be an older elf or two particularly good at storytelling with whom the elflings from several families would spend the early evening listening to his / her songs and tales.

Males and females would have equal responsibility for raising children. But the specifics of what they taught would depend on what the individual himself / herself did.

Whenever, I try to come up with answers to questions like this, I ask myself -- how did the northern Europeans of the Dark Ages do it? I use that as the basis for my answer and then build a more idealistic ("perfect") version because elves are supposed to be enhanced humans, as I understand it.

What was their relationsihp to the forest? How much did nature 'aid' them in daily life?

This is going to be difficult to explain, so I hope it makes sense. I have 2 sides to me when it comes to Tolkien's work -- call them the scholar & the fan. The scholar goes by strict canon with a limited expansion. The fan is more forgiving and elaborate.

The issue of elves and their relationship to the forest is one where the scholar in me and the fan in me don't agree.

The fan in me likes the idea of a close, active relationship between them. By active, I mean where the forest & nature actively plays a role in the elves' daily lives. Best example: The concept that elves and the trees are able to communicate with each other. I have no problems with this as a fan and will probably use it someday as a writer.

The scholar in me doesn't quite buy it though. Maybe it's the remains of the scientist in me, but I just can't warp my logic around it. Yes, I know the elves woke up the trees. Yes, I know the hurons walked to Helm's Deep. Yes, I know that on the edge of Fangorn, Legolas leans forward looking like someone who could learn the speech of the trees if given sufficient time. (That's a memory quote, not a direct quote.) But the scholar still won't accept some of fandoms more active elf - forest interactions. The scholar in me sees the elf - nature relationship more like the kind aboriginal peoples have. A oneness where respect is shown for what the elves must take. A recognition that what is taken must be repayed in some way. Hearing the language of the trees isn't so much a hearing of an acutal speech, but a recognition of what certain movements and sounds mean. Think of it this way ... the way we understand our dogs and cats when they "speak" to us. That's how the scholar in me believes elves hear the trees' language.

Now, I know I've offended some of you because you've written stories with the more active elf - forest interaction. Please, please remember my reviews where I said that I loved the trees & animals interacting with the elves. Please, please remember when I said that the fan in me loves this. As you get to know me, you'll learn that I often have this dichotomy of opinions. Please don't be offended. Please?

[Karri]

As you get to know me, you'll learn that I often have this dichotomy of opinions.

No worries, LKK. In my experince, deeply pondering the finer point of Middle-earth culture usually leads to elvish-thinking (answering yourself with both no and yes to every question.)

[LKK]

Karri said:

Those who dwelt away from the palace, of course, took what they hunted home to their family, but they likely had to go to the king’s palace to get such things as cereals and butter

Why do you think this, Karri? Butter is fairly easy to make. And if we envision farming elves (*giggle*), then those away from the palace could grow cereals as easily as those near the palace. Or were you picturing the butter and cereals to be exclusively imported?

[Nilmandra]

Please, please remember my reviews where I said that I loved the trees & animals interacting with the elves. Please, please remember when I said that the fan in me loves this. As you get to know me, you'll learn that I often have this dichotomy of opinions.

Just like Karri said, you're in good company! I loved it when Frodo said that to Gildor Inglorion - 'go not to the elves for adivce for they will say both nay and yea'!

I think its normal to think one way intelluctually and another when you have to make it into a story. I like to write the interation as showing that the elves are very in tune with nature, that the trees communicate with them, but I think the communication is not something us mere mortals can understand (which was the problem, said Tolkien in one of his letters - so much of this is above us!).

Its fun to come up with these ideas - the trick is to incorporate them in to stories so they make sense.

[LKK]

Nilmandra said:

I love that they are good people, and that they loved starlight and moonlight! I have visions of them dancing and singing at night as normal behavior, not just like at the feast.

I see nightly dancing and singing as normal behavior as well. Remember the elves that Frodo meets on the way to Bree? (The leader's name escapes me for the moment -- Gildor??) I know they weren't Wood Elves, but I expect that Wood Elves would have had a similar feast by the starlight as they did.

Nilmandra said:

And no metal working! So if they had need of weapons other than bows, where did they get them from?

I have a hard time envisioning no metal working whatsever in the wood elves' society. Think about it. That would mean arrow tips of stone, wooden pegs for nails, no chains or hinges for the bridges and doors, and a host of positively ordinary day to day essentials gone. Yes, I know it can be done. But metal is a crucial part of even the earliest societies in history. The wood elves had to have used metal. And I doubt they could trade enough to acquire all the ready-made metals goods they needed.

I think Karri's interepretation is probably closer to right. We're seeing the wood elves through the eyes of the rather upset dwarves. Their comments at the time need to be taken with a grain of salt.

(Actually, the scholar in me honestly believes that Tolkien simply didn't think through the implications of what he wrote when he wrote it since he was writing a children's book at the time. See what I mean about that dang scholar in me? )