Interpreting Legolas a new way

[LKK]

The common convention in fanfic is that Legolas functioned as a warrior in Mirkwood. Has anyone given a thought to rethinking this convention?

I've always been fascinated by the fact that Legolas does not use a sword. Maybe he does in the RoTK battles, I'd have to double check. But he doesn't carry one on the quest. The men and Gandalf carry swords, but not the elf. Tolkien says, "Legolas had a bow and a quiver, and at his belt a long white knife." During the battle at Helm's Deep, Tolkien reinforces this, Legolas says that the fighting has devolved to "knife work" even though the men are still using swords. Legolas certainly could have acquired a sword by this point, but he prefers his knife.

So could it be that Legolas is not a warrior by training but perhaps a hunter? As a hunter, he could still have the superb archery skills we see him demonstrate. But he would most likely not be as comfortable with a sword. Swords aren't the best of hunting tools. LOL

The movies have trained us to think of Legolas as this awe-inspiring swordsman who seems to engage in more of a dangerous dance than in a fight. But could we all be wrong?

[Karri]

Hi LKK,

A great topic. ;D My take on this is a bit controversial, but here goes: I think very few of Thranduil's people were trained as warriors (just a few march wardens, perhaps.) We never see an elf with a sword in the Hobbit (that I recollect). We see spearmen and bowmen. A bow is a weapon of stealth, and I think Thranduil would have opted to take the route of wariness and secrecy (much like the Laiquendi) when he could avoid open battle. Also, as you pointed out, bows and spears are tools for hunting, and I think the elves spent more time hunting than fighting. Orcs did not enter the northern forest (except in the most dire need), and magic seemed to be the Wood-elves primary defense against the spiders (and really any invader, as evidenced by the Enchanted River and their method of fending off the 'assaults' of Thorin and company) When magic was not sufficient, I suspect bow and knife was, and they hunted the spiders as much as battled them.

Alrighty, there's my take on the matter.

[French Pony]

I think it's not so much that there would be a strict hunter/warrior dichotomy; I think that the Wood-elves might not have made soldiering a profession. It's possible that everyone is trained to use weapons for both battle and hunting purposes (both bows and spears can be used both ways).

Thranduil does not have a need to maintain a separate standing army. What he needs more are little militia-type patrols that can hunt (supplying most of the food for the settlement) but which can go off to war at a moment's notice. I think it's not so much that Legolas is in the Army so much as that he's a kickass National Guard member.

Bows and spears are multifunctional; swords aren't. Swords aren't really practical in a densely wooded environment. They are all-metal, whereas arrowheads and spear tips can be made either of stone or of metal. The Wood-elf militia probably consists to a large extent of snipers and spearpersons rather than saber-rattlers.

The Northern Native American tribes seem to have functioned this way -- they didn't maintain standing professional armies, and they didn't seem to use swords. Knives, spears and bows were their weapons of choice, both for hunting and making war on each other.

[LKK]

Your take may be controversial, but I'll stand with you on it, Karri. I never thought of Legolas & the Mirkwood elves as fighters and warriors until the movies came out. Not in the way I think of Aragorn or Boromir as warriors, anyway.

Lots of writers whose stories I adore and who I respect as writers depict the Mirkwood society as needing to be militaristic in structure. Legolas is often one of its best warriors in those stories. As a fanfic reader, I'm quite happy with that interpretation. As a Tolkien scholar wannabe, I'm not sure it's supported by the canon. I wondered if I was alone in that thinking.

I've contemplated writing Legolas as a non-warrior just to see what fandom's reaction would be. I would probably be lynched for it.

[Karri]

Well, so far you have three votes in favor of your interpretation, so I think you would not be lynched. Run out of town, maybe, but not lynched.

[Gwenneth]

Real quick, I'll respond for real later, but I need to go back to work and I have a headache!

I just wanted to say that I think reading a well done fic with Legolas and the Wood-Elves NOT being warriors, would be a welcome thing. I, for one, would like to see them portrayed a bit like peaceful Native Americans or something. Who only fight when they absolutely must. Archery could be a sport and a hunting skill.

I don't know too much canon, but maybe someone can answer this question for me. When Mirkwood was Greenwood, was there as much need for warriors? Spiders and what not all through the woods? What was it like as Greenwood?

K...that's it for now. Good topic!

[Karri]

Gwenneth said:

I don't know too much canon, but maybe someone can answer this question for me. When Mirkwood was Greenwood, was there as much need for warriors? Spiders and what not all through the woods? What was it like as Greenwood?

Hi Gwenneth,

Alas, I fear a more learned Tolkien scholar is required for this question, but I'll do my best. I do not think there would have been might need for warriors. The orcs were not eager, at that time, to go up against Thranduil's people -- for example, the orcs that ambushed Isildur were lying in wait around the Gladden Field when Thranduil's tattered army marched through on their way home, but they stayed hidden and let the elves pass unmolested. There were not spiders yet, though there might have been some wolves and other usual sorts of woodland predators. Basically, I think that during the early days of the Third Age (when it was Greenwood), the Wood-elves lived as peacefully as is possible when mourning the loss of 2/3 of your male population.

During the Second Age, when Oropher was king, things were not so peacefully. Orcs swarmed through the Greenwood on several occassions, though I do not believe they settled in the wood. Also, I don't think the Wood-elves of Oropher were specifically their target, so the elves might have been able to make themselves scarce enough to avoid significant armed conflict on a regular basis (though, based on Oropher's later actions, I'm not sure he would have played it safe, as I think Thranduil would have been inclined to do.)

Was that helpful at all?

[Gwenneth]

Very helpful. I too think I might need to try a non-warrior Elf Mirkwood someday, after I finish my current fics!!!

[Carol]

Okay I know this is an old post but I was readng through all the topics and felt the need to answer. It's been a while since I've had time to get on here and I'm way behind.

I think everyone had a great idea but one things that has not been mentioned is the fact in the first war we know the elves along with Elrond participated. And with what did they use to fight hmmm.... Bows n arrows lol.

And when the elves show up with Haldir they also are all carrying bows n arrows, not a sword to be seen.

Not to say Legolas was indeed a warrior although he would have to in someway have been in order to volunteer for such a dangeous mission, not to mention since he would have had to travel as a representative for his father it would seem only likely he was trained to protect himself and his fellow elves. I can't imagine Thranduil allowing only a skilled hunter to travel across dangerous territory, even if he did have a company to protect him.

But why is that because he doesn't carry a sword, he can't be a warrior. No elf that I have seen carried one and yet I wouldn't consider then anyless warriors.

Okay you can now ignore this rambling woman lol.

~ Carol ~

[Mornflower]

I think that originally in times of peace in Greenwood the Great there was no need for such battle hardened warriors, but I also think that the Elves would need more training than just being a hunter to defend themselves in the Last Alliance and against the evil Sauron unleashed upon Greenwood.

In the early days there was no evil uprising to require such skills, but as times grew darker, the Elves must have needed more skill to keep themselves alive against the uprising of evil in Greenwood and all of Middle Earth. Orcs and spiders began to swarm the forests and kill any they crossed.

Legolas lived in dark times and I believe that Mirkwood did eventually turn to more than just bows and arrows to defend their way of life.

My theory is that they prefered knives over swords because knives were lighter and easier to move through the air at high speeds. With the weight of a sword, it would slow you down with your attacks no matter how light the Elves could make them. You could also throw knifes. It is not that easy to throw a twenty to thirty pound sword and have it embedded in your enemy's chest.

Knives have their disadvantages too. To attack with knives, you would need to be alot closer to the enemy than with a sword. This would require speed and reflexes to keep yourself from being impaled. Elves posess both.

This may just be the unorganized thoughts of a silly teenager but oh well...at least I made some sense to myself...

[Joee]

Mornflower I think you have a good point about knives being light. I can't help but think of the Mirkwood elves as warriors, although I admit, fanfiction probably has a big influence on that. So for them, having a knife makes more sense as it would be easier to move through the trees with one of those, rather than a sword.

Although I don't think they always had armies as large as some people protray in their fics, I still think they might have had a few elves act as warriors full time, but they also had many others trained, but simply living out their lives in other professions until the time was needed for their skills.

So I suppose it could be true that they were simply hunters, however, I think that they may have needed to be trained in the ways of a warrior as well, just incase the need for warriors ever arose, because fighting in a large battle is slightly different from silently stalking your prey and might require different skills.

[Gwenneth]

Okay, I never DID answer this topic, just said I meant to eventually do it! I know, it's late in coming, but I do, sort of, have an opinion here.

I don't think that the Mirkwood Elves, or that Elves in general by the time Fellowship came to be, were really all out warriors.

I mean, when I think of of El and El, I think...WARRIORS...but there is has to be much more to them than that. I mean, knowing the history of Elrond, the twins and Glorfindel would be enough to make anyone think that Rivendell must be full of warrior elves. BUT...that is a part of them born of necessity or the times.

I think maybe it was the same with Mirkwood. When the need arose, they fought, when not, they didn't. Just like any society. I do think that Mirkwood was a dense forest, at least in my mind, and hoping around trees and thick underbrush would make a sword hanging from your belt a bit of a hinderance, I'd say. I mean, the bow you sling over your shoulder and it pretty much follows the line of your body. You can move easier with it, it's lightweight, as I think Morn said, and same with Legolas' knives.

I also think that if Wood-Elves fought from trees, which I like to think they did, correct me if there is no canon for that, wouldn't they want long range weapons? Not swords. You can't shoot a sword at an enemy on the ground...or a spider in a tree, if you are on the ground. So bows would be better suited for the type of enemies and maybe the type fighting they did.

I dunno...maybe I'm rambling, but that's sort of what I think.

But I would really like to think of Mirkwood elves as more the hunter gatherer type of race. And the Rivendell elves, as scholars almost. Maybe that's fanon influencing me though.

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